Curse

Lazarous · May 11, 2005, 09:28 PM // 21:28

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Thats because this IS AN ADVENTURE GAME. You must ADVENTURE to get your stuff. That's been the paradigm for EVERY SAME KIND OF GAME since there were MUDs you could log into with your 2400 baud high-speed modem, and people could PvP on those. Like I keep trying to tell you, you want to play a different game, and those games exist, but they aren't titled Guild Wars.

For the lub of jebus. You can log into these forums, go right to the mob with the skill you want, in the zone you need, and in a couple of hours get the coveted l33t skill. And thats a problem why? "Because im a twitchy kid and I wanna buy it!"

Your argument for not having an alternative system to SoC boils down to 'it makes elites not special'

Thats it.

Your assertion that this is an ADVENTURE GAME as you put it is broken by the fact that you can create (poorly designed, but they're there) pvp only characters from the get go, not a single adventure necessary.

I have said my reasoning for wanting the SoC augmented by something else before. That you continue to ignore it and field these ridiculous arguments which have no bearing on that discussion shows me that you don't have any arguments save the one above.

Laz

Siren · May 11, 2005, 09:31 PM // 21:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazarous

And nowhere was there any indication that they'd gut the skill traders. You're acting like they posted a big sign saying 'enjoy your easy skill acquisition while it lasts, grind will be coming in its place'.

Why would they need to post a big sign, Laz? Why would anyone believe that having every skill available to us in Beta is there for any other reason than we're being given everything all at once so we can test things? It's Beta, man. It's testing. When you're testing, you want to test in a full environment, with as many variables in play as you can, and giving us all skills for the Beta weekends was a way to do that.

If I need some type of actual ANet response to support what I'm saying, then just look to the "Unlock All Skills for Beta Weekend" feature they incorporated and tell me all skills were never intended exclusively for Beta weekend.

It just takes some common sense and reading between the lines, Laz, something you and others have quite simply failed to do. I don't know what else to tell you other than you disappointed yourself, lol.

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Thats not the case.

When you look at the big picture, and examine everything going on, yes, it is the case.

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You're calling us crybabies because

1) you either don't care about pvp or

2) don't mind the massive time sinks required to get on an even playing field for it.

I'm calling you crybabies because the majority of your "criticisms" is what I expect to hear from children or forum trolls.

And your assessment of me would have merit if throughout the entire thread, I hadn't been adamantly supporting changes to the SoC system (and not merely adding in new, unrelated vendor options) that would suit everyone. Fact remains that I probably have been the only "Pro-PvEr" who is eager to work with the PvPers to construct a system that works for everyone, so, again, your criticisms are unfounded, because you're basing a point on two flawed observations.

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Those that are complaining do so, as i have said numerous times, because this game was marketed as pvp-friendly, low to no grind. They changed that so their marketing is false. They can either listen to the complaints and offer some olive branch to those like me, or they can ignore us and lose our future business.

Hold on, what you're saying here is entirely different than bitching about a skill system from Beta, so let's make that perfectly clear. How the game was being marketed (PvP friendly) and a skill system in Beta that was instituted clearly to provide a fuller testing environment are entirely unrelated.

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In what way is this thesis flawed?

Don't confuse the issue. Your thesis above ("olive branch" passage) concerns how the game was marketed, not anything to do with Beta (specifically, the skill vendors). Your complaints regarding the sudden "OMG teh skill vender sistim is liek, t0tali ch4ng3d" are what I labeled flawed, not your criticisms regarding the marketing.

One could establish a correlation between the marketing and the effects of the change, but even so, that would still be operating under the misconception that what we were experiencing in Beta (the skill vendors) was what the final system would be, and judging from ANet's previous releases, their game updates, the understanding of what Betas are, it's undeniably clear that the skill vendors in Beta were not going to remain as they were. To continue to believe so is merely fooling oneself.

You can continue to pursue this if you want, Laz, but you are on the losing end on this one. I say that not to insult you, but I think you should be aware of it.

Also keep in mind that GuildWars has only been out for a little over two weeks now, three, tops, so we are still getting new features, revisions, updates, etc, to systems currently in place now. I find it incredibly premature to be raising such hell over the SoC system, when it's very likely changes will be made...just give ANet time.

goku19123 · May 11, 2005, 09:31 PM // 21:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Augy

For the lub of jebus. You can log into these forums, go right to the mob with the skill you want, in the zone you need, and in a couple of hours get the coveted l33t skill.

That's exactly the problem we are talking about.

Now, instead of putting people down, everyone has an opinion, let's relax.

There is a middle ground for everything, we could easily come up with one.

Loviatar · May 11, 2005, 09:32 PM // 21:32

has anybody noticed that more than 90 per cent of the game is for PVE with nice little areas here and there for pvp?

Lazarous · May 11, 2005, 09:38 PM // 21:38

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Hold on, what you're saying here is entirely different than bitching about a skill system from Beta, so let's make that perfectly clear. How the game was being marketed (PvP friendly) and a skill system in Beta that was instituted clearly to provide a fuller testing environment are entirely unrelated.

Arg.

The logic here isn't hard. They marketed the game as pvp friendly - this was borne out in the bwe with the skill traders and offered 'proof' to those out there like me who didn't want to grind that guild wars was moving away from the paradigm.

Then they changed the skill system acquisition radically with no prior warning.

To put this in perspective, the 'unlock all skills' button in place for the last two bwe was clearly stated as not being something you would see in release.

The two points not exclusive by any strech of the imagination.

Laz

Siren · May 11, 2005, 10:33 PM // 22:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazarous

Arg.

The logic here isn't hard. They marketed the game as pvp friendly - this was borne out in the bwe with the skill traders and offered 'proof' to those out there like me who didn't want to grind that guild wars was moving away from the paradigm.

Then they changed the skill system acquisition radically with no prior warning.

To put this in perspective, the 'unlock all skills' button in place for the last two bwe was clearly stated as not being something you would see in release.

The two points not exclusive by any strech of the imagination.

Laz

"Unlock All Skills for Beta Weekend" indicates that having all skills in Beta is purely for Beta. Why would ANet have all skills available to the entire playerbase at the start of the game in full retail? There is an RPG in GuildWars, after all. There is a focus on character-building.

Just connect the dots, Laz, just connect the dots. And you're exactly right to include proof in quotes, Laz, because most of the Beta didn't mean jackshit...because often, Beta content doesn't mean jackshit, because it's Beta.

In the upcoming weeks, I'm positive we'll see a streamlined SoC system. The concept itself is a fantastic one; it's just the execution/application that needs some tweaking. GuildWars is still incredibly user-friendly, and expect to see modifications to the actual SoC system to make that system more user-friendly and less "grindy."

You talk about how the SoC system is "breaking the game," basically, but what you're seemingly not considering is that the game's only been out for a few weeks at this point, and whether you believe it or not, GuildWars has largely delivered exactly what it was said to be: less grind, more action, less time spent.

I don't know why some here don't like bringing in other games, but going purely by ratio...the ratio in GuildWars of gameplay to grinding is around 80:20, if that. You'd be hard-pressed to find any other game in the "genre" with such a fantastic ratio.

Yes, the SoC is a bit of a timesink every now and again, but I sure as hell don't want to play an extended Beta weekend--and that's exactly what would happen if the skill vendors had stayed the same. Retail wouldn't feel like retail. It would just be an extended Beta that we plunked down 50 bucks for.

Just wait for the streamline. SoC won't feel like a grind after that, and fully-stocked skill vendors will seem like fanservice.

Lazarous · May 11, 2005, 10:49 PM // 22:49

Your logic is lacking. They didn't state that the combat system would remain the same and it did. They didn't state that they wouldn't change the majority of skills and they didn't. By your reasoning nothing at all in the game should be counted on to remain the same, yet this is patently untrue.

A.net has posted no word whatsoever about 'streamlining' SoC. Saying that i should wait quietly for something that you have no idea is going to happen seems disingenious.

SoC is not a 'bit' of a timesink. Do the math - *90* elite skills, perhaps an average of between an hour to two hours to capture each skill should you know exactly where to go and the boss shows up at the right time. No you don't need all those skills, like you don't need armor and you don't need other skills you use. Yes it increases the diversity of builds you can try and thus improve fun for people who like that sort of thing.

Unlocking more than 2 classes skillsets far enough to be pvp viable is a tremendous time investment - this is without SoC because of the way skills are spread all over the world. With SoC it becomes prohibitive, which is why you see pvpers calling for an alternative.

Laz

_brn_ · May 11, 2005, 11:25 PM // 23:25

jeebus people just have fun

Last Gasp · May 12, 2005, 01:32 AM // 01:32

I think the capture system is great. It is the only thing keeping me playing my ranger at this point.

I like adventure and exploration, though, so maybe it is just me.

Last Gasp · May 12, 2005, 01:34 AM // 01:34

One more thing, if you're talking about capturing more than two skillsets, the capture system is NOT GOING TO BE THE TIMESINK.

The timesink will be all the extra levels you'll have to achieve to get the necessary skillpoints. I'm probably the equivalent of lvl 40 now and I'm still short about 20 skills, 8 or 9 of them elite. That is counting both professions.

If you've got a good group of players, you can make those points pretty quickly in underworld, of course.

goku19123 · May 12, 2005, 02:05 AM // 02:05

I don't understand why it is so difficult to merely respect each other's opinion to the point where people are willing to work together to find a middle ground solution.

Siren · May 12, 2005, 02:20 AM // 02:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazarous

Your logic is lacking. They didn't state that the combat system would remain the same and it did. They didn't state that they wouldn't change the majority of skills and they didn't. By your reasoning nothing at all in the game should be counted on to remain the same, yet this is patently untrue.

Regarding the skills...the Betas did mean jackshit in terms of the skill system we saw in the Beta versus Retail.

Laz, you're telling me that you honestly believed we were going to have all the skills in full retail? You didn't consider that "Unlock all Skills for Beta Weekend" meant something more than just "for the limited timespan of this one weekend, all skills are unlocked so all you PvPers can go crazy"? You didn't think that was the Dev approach from the very beginning with the Betas? You're smarter than that, Laz.

Just think about it from a Dev POV. You want players to experience as much of the game content as they can, so they can give you more well-rounded feedback, so you can fine-tune it for release, why wouldn't you give them the All Skills to play around with? Fact of the matter is, that's the precise reason all Skills were available during the Betas: because the Developers knew one weekend was a short amount of time.

In full retail, there is no weekend time limit, and surprise, surprise, we find we don't have fully-stocked skill vendors anymore.

Purely coincidence? No.

The combat didn't change because ANet wasn't going to change the combat, and for the purposes of this discussion, the combat is irrelevant anyway.

The skill vendors changed because ANet fully stocked the skill vendors for the Betas and the Betas alone, so players could get as much playing in as humanly possible and not have to unlock anything.

When you think about it, they didn't pull a fast one at all. Everything they were doing throughout the Betas all was leading up to what we saw in full retail, Laz.

1) The BWEs started with fully-stocked skill vendors.

2) But as the release date approached (those two remaining BWEs), ANet introduced the unlocking system, and did away with the fully-stocked skill vendors (I believe, correct me if I'm wrong).

3) Then as the fans spoke up and requested having all skills again, ANet complied and added the check box, because they do listen to what the fans are saying (this will lead into a later point).

4) Upon Retail, we don't see any "All Skills" options anywhere.

It's clear to me that they (ANet) were not intending to enable all skills when they first introduced the unlocking system, nor were they ever for Retail. The progression has always been weening the players off of the Beta and onto what the Retail system will be. You can keep claiming they pulled a fast one or whatever, but it's clear that they didn't. I don't know why people were surprised with it. It was inevitable all along.

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A.net has posted no word whatsoever about 'streamlining' SoC. Saying that i should wait quietly for something that you have no idea is going to happen seems disingenious.

ANet listens, that's why I'm expecting a change/streamline. We know they listen because we see Gaile on here frequently (and she actually replies, unlike many other companies). We know they listen because otherwise, we wouldn't have gotten the All Skills Unlocked for the last two BWEs. We know they listen because we're getting gold storage in the vaults. You know why I'm expecting a change? Because ANet is on our side, unlike the little shits over at SOE.

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SoC is not a 'bit' of a timesink. Do the math - *90* elite skills, perhaps an average of between an hour to two hours to capture each skill should you know exactly where to go and the boss shows up at the right time. No you don't need all those skills, like you don't need armor and you don't need other skills you use. Yes it increases the diversity of builds you can try and thus improve fun for people who like that sort of thing.

Unlocking more than 2 classes skillsets for enough to be pvp viable is a tremendous time investment - this is without SoC because of the way skills are spread all over the world. With SoC it becomes prohibitive, which is why you see pvpers calling for an alternative.

Laz

You missed my point entirely, Laz. Rather than not getting so bent out of shape over what is most certainly going to be an improving SoC system, you're choosing to turn the game back into an extended Beta, which seems to be the direct antithesis of what ANet's goals are right now.

Manderlock · May 12, 2005, 03:52 AM // 03:52

"Im back, the fog has lifted and raised the gifted" (10 pts to whoever knows that song

)

Posted this in the other thread about SoC.

After talking to Pharalon in PMs, I see the issue. There still is no obviose way to "fix" it. Some people say lots of gold to get elite skills. If its to low they are too easy to get, and if its too high that would equal grind (exactly what we are trying avoid).

This is a IMO thing, but the PvPers get all of there atrabute pts in one fell swoop, while even a lvl 20 RP char is forced to do 2 extra quests to have the same amount of pts. Could they have meant it to be like that? I have no clue.

I am a fan of the current SoC prosses, and anything added on would undermine that. However, I see that some PvP players dont want to force themselves to play 100+ hours doning something that dont want to. Maby they can add a reward system to the new and improved arena, and make where random arenas are the only ones that can win it the prize.( that would help alievate some of Loviatars consernes).

I really dont want anything to change in the current system, as I said Im for the SoC. I takes skill and practice to be able to pull of a succesful capture. I can however see that current plight of PvP chars.

That being said, I dont want to see this turned into two different games. If PvPers are given this I fear that they will begin to complain about having to PvE at all. (PvP only players still have to play some PvE if they want to be worth anything in PvP) I alos dont want them try and "fix" this issue and then go completley overboard and screwing up something else.

Thats my view on this, take it how you will.

P.S. To Laz, you keep saying that the PvP is the end-game. If thats true, then you MUST play the rest of the game BEFORE you can be worth anything in PvP.

You are right, PvP is meant to be the END-game.

May 12, 2005, 04:05 AM // 04:05

For the last time, the reason they are called Elite skills is for a game balancing reason, it has nothing to do with how they are acquired.

And for those of you speaking for the devs, they know that the community has an issue with the current skill setup. They wont read a thread like this though because of all the blatant lying and refusal to read by many people. It's been 9 pages and people are still comparing GW to other games and thinking PvP players want an Unlock All Skills button. This thread should be archived for comedy.

TheNakedOne · May 12, 2005, 04:20 AM // 04:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siren

Laz, you're telling me that you honestly believed we were going to have all the skills in full retail? You didn't consider that "Unlock all Skills for Beta Weekend" meant something more than just "for the limited timespan of this one weekend, all skills are unlocked so all you PvPers can go crazy"? You didn't think that was the Dev approach from the very beginning with the Betas? You're smarter than that, Laz.

You've misread entirely, Siren.

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Originally Posted by Lazarous

To put this in perspective, the 'unlock all skills' button in place for the last two bwe was clearly stated as not being something you would see in release.

His point is that, unlike the skill traders, A.net DID clearly state that the unlock all skills button was termporary only.

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Originally Posted by Siren

Just think about it from a Dev POV. You want players to experience as much of the game content as they can, so they can give you more well-rounded feedback

So, exactly - think from a Dev POV. You want players to experience game content so that they can give you feedback. You don't change up what you had put in the beta as "normal" content (skill traders) without trying the change first with your testers. Otherwise, you get no feedback! Basic idea eh. Now normal behavior is as with the unlock all button - they said "hey try out the skills with this temporary button we're giving ya."

Lazarous · May 12, 2005, 04:37 AM // 04:37

Siren - i have no idea what you're arguing, but its certainly nothing i stated.

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Originally Posted by Lazarous

To put this in perspective, the 'unlock all skills' button in place for the last two bwe was clearly stated as not being something you would see in release.

Where you got that i was arguing the exact opposite i have no idea.

Your continued faith in a company that chose to push out the door a massive change to the skill acquisition system without testing or notifying anyone of it is touching.

For my part i wash my hands of this. This is akin to arguing against a wall.

Laz

Manderlock · May 12, 2005, 05:27 AM // 05:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazarous

Siren - i have no idea what you're arguing, but its certainly nothing i stated.

Where you got that i was arguing the exact opposite i have no idea.

Your continued faith in a company that chose to push out the door a massive change to the skill acquisition system without testing or notifying anyone of it is touching.

For my part i wash my hands of this. This is akin to arguing against a wall.

Laz

Yea........I bet thats exactly what they feel about you. The truth is that you fell something is wrong, we fell its right.

The reason that it has become a flame war is because you (and others) have been constantly belittling each other through out this thread.

May 12, 2005, 05:46 AM // 05:46

The reason it's a flame war is because people are not reading each other's posts. Combined with the fact that when people are speaking for the devs w/o proof or making things up we have a recipe for a useless topic.

Thach · May 12, 2005, 05:56 AM // 05:56

This is just kind of a random thing i'm puting out here...now, i understand something similar could have come up but i frankly was getting bored of reading the same things over and over again for like the first 5 pages of this thread...so anyway:

Situation: A.net takes out elites completely...

Would people be happy or mad??

Sausaletus Rex · May 12, 2005, 06:44 AM // 06:44

All I have to say on the subject is "We gave up the gem system for this?"

This thread went off the rails as soon as posts became more about just why posts were flames or people's points of views were horribly misguided than about the actual issue at hand. A shame, because it's an important issue which is why I've not stepped in earlier. My mistake, I can see. However, this thread hover near being locked and my every instinct says leaving it open will only lead to more trouble. However, I'm going to give you all one last chance to prove me wrong and leave it open with a warning that what we do here is not to engage in the politics of personal destruction, we debate the facts in a passionate yet rationale manner.

Stop belittling each other. Everyone's opinion is welcome here, despite what you might think. Speak for yourself and not for others, especially when you don't know those for whom you've appointed yourself to speak. Don't tell each other that "that's the way it is" or "if you don't like it you don't have to play". Guild Wars is a game not just for you but for as many people as possible. We're all better served the more people can play and enjoy our game.

That means diversity, though, and a tolerance for the fact that not everyone will be trying to play the game the exact same way you will. The game is complex and varied, though, and can support a lot of different ways of playing and looking at it. Enough that some people can carve out a little niche for themselves and declare themselves a special and protected group of players who have their own needs and wants and ruination to anyone who stands in their way. That's a false segregation, though, because no matter how many ways to play there are we're all still playing the same game. There are no PvE players and PvP players, there are GW players. And while it can never be possible to make every single last one of us perfectly happy at the same time, the game is not zero sum. For those who prefer to play one way to be happy doesn't necessarily mean that others have to suffer. The issue is not how to bring complete happiness to one group at the expense of all others. The issue is how to make one group happier while keeping everyone else satisfied.

In so many words, some players are unhappy. They find the way the game currently works to be annoying, dull, and repetitive - a grind. And much of the blame for that can be laid at the feet of the last minute changes to the skill system from the last BWE to the release version, specifically the SoC and that elites can only be obtained through that mechanic. To find enough skills to enjoy PvP is taking not just a short amount of time but what many feel is altogether a lengthy and unreasonable amount of time. Others are prefectly happy and content with things the way they are. The question, the answer, is not how do you change things to make PvP players go through less grind. Instead, it's how do you change things so that everyone has a better experience? How can you make skill acquisition easier and less time intensive for those who want to PvP their hearts out and require a playing field as level as possible while still making skills important and rare enough to be a valuable reward for those who enjoy the sort of exploration and discovery of scarce resources and progressive advancement that typifies what's known as an RPG - or PvE?

To say that things are the way they are and those who don't like it can go and screw is not an answer and not a welcome response. To say that is to reduce GW to a narrow ghetto where it will never climb out. Guild Wars is not a typical MMO, it's not got the bredth of content or the potential for community and socialization to compete on those terms. No more than could just a GW FPS where you'd start with no levels and all the skills at your fingertips with no character advancement at all compete against games that do player versus player combat far better. It's a blend of those elements and more. We're not trying to put limits on things here, we're trying to better and improve the game so that everyone out there can try it and enjoy it. So stop the destructive bickering and start being constructive.